Discussion regarding gravity and knockback

[Pigeon]

Hey crescent.

This thread will be divided into two main parts: discussion about whether gravity and kb cause too many problems in gameplay or if the benefits offset the issues, and discussion about potential reworks to the traits if the general consensus is that they need to be changed. As you're reading this and discussing, please keep in mind that this is not a statement that the traits are being changed or removed. This is simply me wondering if the community thinks this is a problem that should be addressed or not.

Kb and grav cause a number of problems, especially as we introduce more maps. As it stands, we don't consider them to be valid means of transportation, because most maps were not designed with them in mind, and considering them legal methods of transportation would ruin many aspects of many maps, such as map secrets and t rooms.

Some notable examples include:

• Using kb/grav to get into the t room on inno motel (we patched this by creating a barrier that deactivates the trait if you pass through it going the wrong way. This only works because the tunnel is long. It isn't a suitable solution for most of the examples on this list)
• Using kb/grav to get into the t room on alstoybarn.
• To get onto the roof of alstoybarn and delay the round.
• To get out of the map on albatross.
• To get onto the kosable yellow roof on mc nuketown.
• To get onto the semi-kosable mountaintop on mc fissure before it becomes accessible to innocents.
• To get into the t room on pool party.

You get the point. There are too many situations and unique limitations to fix with barriers and kill boxes, and there's only so much we can do in terms of teleporting people and occasionally banning people. There's also no way to nerf any of the numbers of grav and kb that would make them less of a problem while also maintaining their use for mobility around the map without a major rework. That's the bulk of the negative argument.

The positive argument is that the current system works. We do occasionally have situations where people complain about getting tped, or don't understand why it's kosable if they can get there as an inno, but for the most part, it isn't a problem. Grav and Kb offer a lot of utility and mobility, and are very fun options. The benefits of keeping them as is outweigh the occasional argument with mods and ruined t round when someone flies into the t room and kills you.

There's also the middle ground, arguing that they are problematic, but can be solved with role specific kill boxes on areas like the pool party t room, the yellow roof on nuketown, and the t room on alstoybarn, as well as general killboxes on areas that cause delay like the alstoybarn roof and albatross water outside of the intended area of play, and barriers that deactivate the trait like in inno motel.

None of these are perfect solutions.

I personally am in favor of a rework to both traits, however, I don't think that's the popular opinion, and I'd like to open it to discussion. So the first question is: Are grav and kb problematic enough that they should be reworked, or are they fine as is? Should this be addressed within each map itself?

The second question is: What would be a good way to change it if you think it should be changed?

I haven't come up with an idea for kb yet, but I thought maybe grav could be an activated trait that changes your jump to the fun round moon bounce for a short while. It fits thematically with gravity, offers combat utility, and to a slight extent, some extra movement capabilities.

 

[Torbjörn]

My personal stance is that the current versions of the traits that we have are fun to use and don't really need to be changed. However, I think we should focus on making changes to the maps such as kill boxes or similar to prevent knockback and gravity from being able to access those areas in the map. On some maps we could just do a kill box for innocents that try accessing T only areas while not making the region as a whole a kill box in case they teleport or gain access through other means. Current rules are not sufficient in my opinion, we shouldn't just make areas KOSable or require staff to intervene -- the server should just automatically enforce rules on areas that should or shouldn't be accessible by knockback and gravity.

 

[Gomgo]

My personal stance is that the current versions of the traits that we have are fun to use and don't really need to be changed. However, I think we should focus on making changes to the maps such as kill boxes or similar to prevent knockback and gravity from being able to access those areas in the map. On some maps we could just do a kill box for innocents that try accessing T only areas while not making the region as a whole a kill box in case they teleport or gain access through other means. Current rules are not sufficient in my opinion, we shouldn't just make areas KOSable or require staff to intervene -- the server should just automatically enforce rules on areas that should or shouldn't be accessible by knockback and gravity.

Facts my man!

 

[Opalium]

A lot of these scenarios aren't unique to KB/GV. Prop surfing and other ways of propelling yourself to different areas exist, after all. I'm not sure that targeting these traits specifically should be the case here, rather than the problem of "getting where you shouldn't be able to get to".

That being said, there are technical solutions I can think of that may be able to ease at least some of this. Things like one-way walls, kill boxes, trait disable boxes, and more. However, I worry this will eventually become some sort of a cat-and-mouse game; every time we'll patch one hole, another will be found. This is why the rules in question are just as cruical for this to work - we can't solve everything through map patching alone.

 

[PigBenis crs.gg]

My personal stance is that the current versions of the traits that we have are fun to use and don't really need to be changed. However, I think we should focus on making changes to the maps such as kill boxes or similar to prevent knockback and gravity from being able to access those areas in the map. On some maps we could just do a kill box for innocents that try accessing T only areas while not making the region as a whole a kill box in case they teleport or gain access through other means. Current rules are not sufficient in my opinion, we shouldn't just make areas KOSable or require staff to intervene -- the server should just automatically enforce rules on areas that should or shouldn't be accessible by knockback and gravity.

I agree with torb on this one I’d really hate to see gravity changed to the moon bounce.

 

[TheDrunkenMagi]

A quick fix would be to just add in a warning pop-up that says using that trait can put you in illegal/dangerous areas blah blah blah