Rules Evidence Leniency

[Agent A]

It's fine to be lenient with evidence.
If they don't have any evidence, reports get marked as word vs. word and potentially invalid just because they didn't gather everything from damagelogs to deathscenes in case the reported person may be exaggerating the truth.
This creates a very skewed view of situations because the staff didn't fully collect the evidence.
Furthermore, it creates unnecessary frustration and can paint staff in negative light.

There are better ways of dealing with things.
On SGM, there was evidence retention change where that situation was far better to handle evidence leniency because evidence will still be collected, and staff will have no excuse for not gathering evidence.
It is basically after couple of months, evidence may be deleted, and staff's word is just enough.
Furthermore, if storage is a concern, the staff can make a discord channel solely for evidence storage.
It has been done and has worked well when staff includes steamid to their evidence for easier searching.

Thus, change this leniency on evidence gathering.
There's better ways of handling this.

 

[Acnologia]

haha yes
I agree with proper evidence collection though.

 

[MemeDaddy]

@rcarney

 

[Siddo]

I agree in principle.
I like the lax approach to evidence, but I prefer staff to keep at least a bare minimum of evidence to help clarify situations and build rapport with the community, by proving that we can be held to account and trusted.

 

[MemeDaddy]

i 100% agree, especially when people make serious accusation about loopholeing but then when you ask for evidence they have none. wheres the accountability?

 

[Anna]

I don't think its fair to request staff to be recording every single second of game play on the servers; i never have a never will do this approach. I have better things to store on my hard drives than hours of game play that I keep just in case a report should pop up and before you say "well just delete it after a period of time". I'm useless enough as it is at removing stuff i actively see but don't use. I'm not going to remember to remove that shit.

That being said I have always expected that a screenshot of a report and any damage/shot logs surrounding the situation be logged on reports where action has been taken. Same with any communications between parties, any mutes or gags etc. I don't expect people to record every single death scene on these reports either. Most of the time the logs will suffice as they give more than enough information on a situation without having to record portions of the game. Just simple screenshots, even maybe a screenshot of a key part of a death scene is more than enough than having to spend time trying to record all of them, and even then only the SUPER important ones. Not every single report requires the help of a death scene to come to a conclusion.

In cases such as loop holing, hacking, or trolling I would expect that recording some portion of game play is a standard approach especially as these are more severe instances of rule breaking which often lead to more severe punishments and we should have something to back up those claims should they be requested to be presented. But screens hotting every single report or recording your entire gameplay all the time is just ridiculous in my opinion and isn't something that should be required.

However, if we are to expect staff members to keep a log of punishments they may provide then we need to look at this as a two way street and in cases where people believe there are staff members breaking rules, they need to also provide their own evidence in these instances. We don't believe in reports where people can claim things all they want, provide nothing to support it and then expect a staff member to show their innocence. Just like you don't want to see staff claiming someone did all the wrong in the world, deserved their punishment and not provide something as proof if asked.

 

[Agent A]

I don't think its fair to request staff to be recording every single second of game play on the servers; i never have a never will do this approach. I have better things to store on my hard drives than hours of game play that I keep just in case a report should pop up and before you say "well just delete it after a period of time". I'm useless enough as it is at removing stuff i actively see but don't use. I'm not going to remember to remove that shit.

Again, there's actual solutions to these storage problems.
I have gave a suggestion.

However, if we are to expect staff members to keep a log of punishments they may provide then we need to look at this as a two way street and in cases where people believe there are staff members breaking rules, they need to also provide their own evidence in these instances. We don't believe in reports where people can claim things all they want, provide nothing to support it and then expect a staff member to show their innocence. Just like you don't want to see staff claiming someone did all the wrong in the world, deserved their punishment and not provide something as proof if asked.

I'm not saying that you should accept all of these kind of situation. However, if I'm providing some evidence and the other party didn't bring anything and it gets marked invalid because he didn't record it, making it a word vs. word situation. That's where the problem lies.

I get what you're saying, however, staff still needs to be held accountable through their evidence collection.
Otherwise, what is stopping from staff claiming that they don't have the evidence and getting away with reports.
That's why you shouldn't be skimming on the evidence collection.

 

[Anna]

Again, there's actual solutions to these storage problems.
I have gave a suggestion.

That's the thing though, regardless of if there is a solution to the storage problem, requesting staff record everything is just stupid and I will never support that. This isn't a job. We offer to give our time here. I'm not going to record every time i'm on for hours on end and then have to sift through it at a later date.

I'm not saying that you should accept all of these kind of situation. However, if I'm providing some evidence and the other party didn't bring anything and it gets marked invalid because he didn't record it, making it a word vs. word situation. That's where the problem lies.

I get what you're saying, however, staff still needs to be held accountable through their evidence collection.
Otherwise, what is stopping from staff claiming that they don't have the evidence and getting away with reports.
That's why you shouldn't be skimming on the evidence collection.

The people we have as staff are in a position of power for a reason and if anyone were to lie about not having evidence to get away with reports would end very poorly for them. Staff members are staff because they are trusted within the community that they can do their job correctly. That being said no one here is afraid to own up to their actions and have things explained to them if they do wrong. We don't rule with an iron fist if someone makes a mistake but if someone is being actually sneaky and malicious those people will be removed from their position.

Staff need to be held accountable to the bare minimum of providing some simple screenshots I will agree. But to ask people to record everything? No.

 

[Agent A]

That's the thing though, regardless of if there is a solution to the storage problem, requesting staff record everything is just stupid and I will never support that. This isn't a job. We offer to give our time here. I'm not going to record every time i'm on for hours on end and then have to sift through it at a later date.

We agree to disagree. Let's leave it there. I still think staff should be gathering evidence and not skimming on them.

The people we have as staff are in a position of power for a reason and if anyone were to lie about not having evidence to get away with reports would end very poorly for them. Staff members are staff because they are trusted within the community that they can do their job correctly. That being said no one here is afraid to own up to their actions and have things explained to them if they do wrong. We don't rule with an iron fist if someone makes a mistake but if someone is being actually sneaky and malicious those people will be removed from their position.

Staff need to be held accountable to the bare minimum of providing some simple screenshots I will agree. But to ask people to record everything? No.

Sure. That is the truth that people have claim as such. However, you're being idealistic. In an ideal perfect world, we wouldn't be having this problem if that was the case. The unfortunate truth is that people have lied, forged evidence, etc. in various communities with various different rules. Crescent is no exception. Furthermore, you're asking the community to do things that they don't even have access to such as the damagelogs/deathscenes. While PoV may be helpful, the deathscene is more helpful as it provides more objective third party view of the situation than a recording of a person's PoV. Thus, it makes it harder for the community to hold staff accountable. Thus, that is why they should be gathering evidence including deathscenes and not just going off by their word. You want to foster a better relationship with better accountability? Hold the staff accountable for their evidence so people don't always feel like cheated. Alternatively, provide us with a wider variety of tools than the console damagelogs. That includes allowing us to see the reports that was made against us/made by us in the f8 damagelogs as well as access to other tools. But until that option is provided to us, the next best option is having staff hold accountable for their evidence gathering because saying these things to people will just sound like a badly made PR statement.