WepMod Trance needs a buff.

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Weiss

1%
Crescent Infinity
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
170
This has been in consideration for a while for me.

Trance got moved to the performance slot because combining the effects of trance with any of the other performance mods made for very strong weapons - rapid fire reaping the most benefits from the effects of trance, with the others just making the gun easier to use.

However, now that it's in the performance slot, it is under performing. It currently provides: -50% Spread and -20% recoil while ADS and an overall -15% movespeed reduction while you have the weapon out.

To compare to what its competing with; Precision gives -45% spread overall, meaning both in ADS and regular hipfire, and Stability gives -60% recoil again, overall. Obviously trance takes a lesser version of both of these, which on paper should be really strong, but when it's restricted to only ADS and giving you movespeed reduction outright, it falls tremendously short of its performance wepmod brethren.

The balance team hasn't been in effect for a long time, since the balance patch prior to the most recent one, so it hasn't been spoken about amongst many people. However i'd like some sort of discussion about how to make trance at least comparable to the other wepmods.

All proposed numbers are spitballs, not at all tested or anything. If you have number suggestions, or plain disagree with what I'm suggestion, please feel free to say why so we can discuss. Original effects will be listed on the left, with new/changed numbers and/or effects listed on the right.

While ADS:Overall:
-50% Spread-30% Spread
-20% Recoil-30% Recoil

-15% Movement Speed while Deployed-15% Movement Speed while Deployed

This breaks the idea of Trance, whereupon it's intended to improve only your ADS performance, but gives it a strong argument for being something you can actually consider for your Performance slot. Changed the amount benefit you get for both because we don't want it to overshadow the others either - of which may happen at some point. No matter what you do, there will always be a better option when balancing.

While ADS:While ADS:
-50% Spread-40% Spread
-20% Recoil-35% Recoil

-15% Movement Speed while Deployed-25% Movement Speed while ADS

This keeps Trance in its intended route - ADS benefits only. If you're a veteran of v1, you'll recognize it a bit more (though obviously not as strongly or as accurately), whereupon you get very strong benefits to your ADS but at the cost of a significant amount of your movement speed while ADSing. If you weren't around for v1; as a quick history lesson, v1's Trance used to do the same thing basically but at the cost of 95% of your movement speed while ADS, which was a much different time for server gameplay philosophy.

While ADS:While ADS:
-50% Spread-50% Spread
-20% Recoil-40% Recoil

NEWWhile ADS:
NEW-35% Rate of Fire

-15% Movement Speed while DeployedRemoved? Or -10% Movement Speed while Deployed?

This is the original Trance that more people will remember, as it was in v2. The notable change is the loss of rate of fire, where the original Trance had it at a measly -10% rate of fire reduction. Most people will remember the Mac-10 + Trance combo, which ran rampant for quiet a while. Then we decided to, at the same time, remove the option of Trance from SMGs entirely and nerf Trance substantially by introducing the movement speed reduction and removing the rate of fire reduction. I was a primary advocate for pushing the rate of fire penalty further, because 10% has terrible scaling - Mac-10 had a 1000 RPM fire rate, and 10% just pushed it down to 900 RPM - still substantially faster than any other gun at the time. The rate of fire reduction will certainly hamper your TTK, but at the cost of amazing control over your weapon. Keep in mind, this is percentage based. It will hurt the higher base RPM weapons more than it will hurt the lower RPM weapons.

To put that into perspective, a Mac-10 (Base 900 RPM) goes down to 765 RPM, which is still quite fast. But a slow RPM weapon like the M4A1 (Base 375 RPM) goes down only to 319 RPM.

-35% is certainly a harsh number, but as I said, it can be tweaked. And it only affects you while you're ADSing, your hipfire RPM will still be the same, just like your recoil and spread.

Whether or not the movement speed reduction stays is up for grabs.

While ADS: While ADS:
-50% Spread-50% Spread
-20% Recoil-20% Recoil

-15% Movement Speed while DeployedRemoved / only while ADS

If you want to just keep Trance as it is, but give it an arguably small buff, this removes your movement speed penalty which is a significant QoL. Movement speed in TTT is a very very strong and important stat, because it means you can or cannot catch up to someone or run from someone. Your AD strafing is impacted by movespeed, many things are.

Now that we've gotten through the suggestions that I have, I want to address some concerns that I feel like might come up.

But Weiss, the movement speed penalty doesn't even matter! Just B-hop!
Not wrong. B-hopping is your way around the movement speed penalty, and a good one at that. However, this is under the assumption that everyone and anyone can do it and is willing all the time. If you're on a slope, going up, it is impossible to keep a bhop going that maintains a good speed that is higher than your base speed - even without accounting for a movement speed penalty. Crescent is lucky to be absurdly easy to Bhop on, but even with that advantage, not everyone is bhopping around.



Okay. That's it for how to change Trance's numbers and effects and how I think it could be addressed.

The other question I have for you to consider is; should we give back Trance to SMGs?

I think yes. Especially with the new tweaked numbers, even prior to whatever may come of this post specifically, Trance is nowhere near as good as it was prior. And it's in a slot that is frankly, heavily contested with great alternative options. Very similar to the Utility slot, where you have to make a decision behind E-Mag, Cooldown, Lightweight, and the absurdly strong Sterility. I'm for giving Trance back to SMGs. We could even give it back to shotguns too... not like they can use it.
 
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Eriana

OMEGALUL FURRY STAFF OMG
Crescent Plus
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
53
Hi there, Weiss. I'm just going to give a lookthrough on this suggestion, and give my honest opinion on things, because balance is a serious thing to take into account when it comes to trying to determine the stats of mods and guns.

However, now that it's in the performance slot, it is under performing. It currently provides: -50% Spread and -20% recoil while ADS and an overall -15% movespeed reduction while you have the weapon out.

To compare to what its competing with; Precision gives -45% spread overall, meaning both in ADS and regular hipfire, and Stability gives -60% recoil again, overall. Obviously trance takes a lesser version of both of these, which on paper should be really strong, but when it's restricted to only ADS and giving you movespeed reduction outright, it falls tremendously short of its performance wepmod brethren.
I'd like to start off with this. There are several arguments that can be made to both why Precision and Stability are the way they are: because while they are effectively doing the same job - making it so that your shots more predictably land where you want them - they do so in very different ways. I often like to describe Precision and Stability in different terms - Pre-Fire Accuracy and Post-Fire Accuracy.

Pre-Fire Accuracy (Precision) is more suited for weapons that rely on making sure you land your shot first, and not second. Stuff like the M4A4/M4A1, for example and in my personal experience, benefit the most from Precision. Usually this is geared towards slower-firing weapons that hit harder, but there are exceptions - I'll get to those.

Post-Fire Accuracy (Stability) is more suited for weapons that have a generally faster fire rate, or weapons that have a decent amount of recoil, like the P90 or the AK-47, which greatly benefit from Stability over Precision. Again, as before, there are exceptions to this as well.

Snipers gain very little benefit from Precision, so I find it to be a wasted slot, as opposed to Stability. I also find that the secondaries are inverse to most primaries - Stability is better on a Deagle (IN MY OPINION) than Precision, and Precision is better on a Glock (IN MY OPINION) than Stability.

However, you run into an interesting situation when you take into account both of these stats, where guns that are normally not very accurate can quite literally become laser pointers. Even if Trance uses both of these stats, just giving it to the player without a downgrade would be quite literally overpowered, as we have seen with how it has been used in the past. There needs to be a line drawn when it comes to mods that give such strength, and that line comes in the form of penalties or specific activation - in the case of Trance, both.

The balance team hasn't been in effect for a long time, since the balance patch prior to the most recent one, so it hasn't been spoken about amongst many people.
As it stands, weapon balancing appears to be done as a collective whole among the staff team, and not just as an individual "balancing team." Some regulars are even included when it comes to balancing weapons, as they know the weapons just as well as the rest of us.

And now, to look at your proposed changes.

Suggestion 1

I feel this to be, again, removing one of those things that makes Trance balanced in the first place - the fact that you have to be ADS for it to kick into effect. The problem with this, lies in the fact that some penalties from mods can be negated using other mods - Lightweight, for example, completely nullifies the negative speed penalty of Trance, and instead, replaces it with an increase in damage taken. Keeping that in mind, that would be another one of those lines being taken away from making the mod balanced. There has to be a point where we can't just change a mod without thinking about all the other mods that interact with it, and we at that point now.

Suggestion 2
This is an interesting one, because I feel this is actually a slight nerf to how Trance is currently, and I don't think that is what you're intending. a 10% decrease in spread is actually a strong change, as most players will like to point out. Especially if you're shooting over far distances, a 10% decrease in precision can make a shot that would normally hit at a long range, miss far.

Suggestion 3
I for one find this quite appealing, actually. So I'm not going to say much on it, primarily because I kind of like the idea - though, I agree, the numbers on the rate of fire should be changed after testing.

Suggestion 4
I strongly disagree with removing the movement speed debuff/changing it without adding or changing another aspect of it. We already saw how strong it was in the past with Rapid Fire and Trance. We don't need a new rampancy to come around - Lightweight and Trance.

I'm not going to comment on your opinions on the B-hopping, primarily because that's something entirely different that should be discussed in its own thread.

The other question I have for you to consider is; should we give back Trance to SMGs?

I don't think so. As it stands, SMGs are functionally different than assault rifles, because SMG's function more on a "spray and pray" mentality; as such, they often sport lower damage, higher magazines, and lower headshot multiplier. I feel it would be counter-intuitive to the progression of the server to add it back to SMG's.
 

Flire

Penguins > Pigeons
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
162
Hi Weiss,

Now I'm less feeling sick and somewhat awake now I'll post my views.

The reasoning behind moving trance to a performance mod I feel like was a very good change that was needed. It stops guns having a huge buff with rapid fire which made so many guns a lazer beam at range with very little negative, and all in all it kind of didn't belong in the slot it was in, it is a performance mod its helping the performance of the gun so moving trance fixed a lot of problems we had on guns and obviously we still tweaked some guns a little that needed it like the Galil etc.


Now yes, the balance police is no more and I kind of lead suggestions that go to opal that we then eventually test with other people when Opal and I crunch down the numbers and go over it with eachother.
I did send Opal a DM back in what September/October time whenever we did the small "balance patch" that was needed to fix some issues that people kept messaging me about ingame and Dm'ing me about on discord; That the next balance patch we do we fully need to go over the Mods and completely Rework them and how they work as some of them still do make certain guns stupidly good.

However with the then Halloween update, then they continued with Recrescent which WAS meant to be released between that and the Christmas event, then the Christmas event having to be done I haven't pestered Opal with it yet not because I don't want to go over it with him just more so nothing is completely busted to the point people are constantly complaining about them if you catch my drift? Yes I really want to go over Mods, me and Opal have both agreed it needs to be but I don't want Dev time being took away from ReCrescent, if it means we do it after or when Opal has more free time we'll have to go from there.


On the views of trance however I'm glad you're shoving in Suggestions I'm always happy to have you in my DM's about certain things to do with guns that need buffing or nerfing and mods etc that I can happily put my views towards and either counter argue why I personally feel like it may not need a change or why it could need a better change or something different that you suggested.

Based on what you've done with trance I see it one of Two ways ; I'd either want to remove trance which is the easy way out as it is a pain in the ass that people still somewhat complain about certain guns being a complete Lazer with it (Which isn't exactly the guns fault its the mods) But having it in the server adds something different so the suggestion I like is Suggestion 3 as Eriana said, I'd gladly tap in some numbers of Trance maybe keeping it as it is or making it slightly better but have it when you ADS you have a X amount of a ROF nerf. Maybe keep the trance numbers the same but make it like -25% tier 3 20% tier 2 15% tier 1. But again these numbers me and opal can fiddle with and if we find numbers we like we can gladly find a middle ground.

Do I feel like trance COULD be re added to SMG'S potentially we'd have to see how they perform in testing before adding it backs, shotguns it would be pointless as I feel like trance should only activate whilst ADS'ing not in general.


So keep posting Suggestions and if you'd like to have a personal discussion with me on it to argue my points or agree with my points or W/E i'm always down to have a chat about balancing.

The balance Bum himself - Floorboard.